Wheel Lock Bolts

[Guest]

I had my chap round this morning to refurb a few alloys. Unfortunately, he cannot loosen any of the lock or normal bolts. He had a 3 ft. extension on the socket tool but alas no joy.

I have asked a friendly local garage to have a look at for me, they say they will try but cannot guarantee they can get them undone.

What would my next option be?

BMW were the last to have the wheels off, before I owned the car.

Many thanks.

[Upt'North]

I would drive it to a tyre centre and try with a rattle gun, keep your fingers crossed with the locking nuts. 

Look on the bright side, the tyres will last for ages if you can't get the wheels off. Good luck. 

Upt'North

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Upt'North said:

I would drive it to a tyre centre and try with a rattle gun, keep your fingers crossed with the locking nuts. 

Look on the bright side, the tyres will last for ages if you can't get the wheels off. Good luck. 

Upt'North

Thank you. Yes, my guy has a gun. Once I have got through this, car is being sold. My first and last ever BMW.

[Upt'North]

Have I missed something, I thought you were enjoying it? 

Prey tell please Suzuki Boy. I was thinking of selling the X1 but with what I was being offered I've decided to keep it for now but it will cost me another 12 months BMW warranty next April. 

Upt'North. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Upt'North said:

Have I missed something, I thought you were enjoying it? 

Prey tell please Suzuki Boy. I was thinking of selling the X1 but with what I was being offered I've decided to keep it for now but it will cost me another 12 months BMW warranty next April. 

Upt'North. 

Just everything seems to go wrong, its hard to work on and expensive to run and repair. I enjoy driving it but all other things considered, I think I made the wrong choice. A very low milegae 2016 model - I thought all would be good. It's very quick but I'm afraid that's about it on the positive side. It took me a month to track down the correct tyre pressures, only to find the rears were the wrong size. They are wider, granted but these are wider than wider! 14 emails to BMW led to that resolution. It seems several thousand emails ago, I established the BMW stealer put a litre of oil in less than it should (on last service). Not to mention the fact there is no dipstick and one has to do a 30 mile stint before you can check level. Not good when level is low in the first place. Of course, 30 miles hence, I'm not sure where I might magic oil from?

 

 

[Greydog]

Morning Richard

Sorry to hear you are considering leaving BMW behind my car experience is long very long and over the years have had issues with many marques. Most times I have found if the dealer is responsive and actually properly recognizes the customer problems there are less bad feelings. I had to deal with a Mercedes dealer who thought that because he loaned me a car it was OK for my £80k AMG to gather dust in the back of their workshop?? 

Your wheel problem is a disaster caused by a poorly trained gorilla wielding a rattle gun set on the highest setting slamming bolts home. If it was your dealer who you purchased from actually sold you a car that had (a) the wrong size tyres and (b) the wheel bolt over tightened I would be talking to BMW UK as well as the dealer on safety grounds.

Dave 

[Upt'North]

As a whole I haven't found BMW dealers too bad, my normal franchise is Lloyd's in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. Although the car was purchased through BMW UK, so the dealers have only looked after servicing and warranty work. The only problem but I'm guessing this is the same everywhere is that faults are becoming more difficult to diagnose and subsequently repair; 10 days for a rear washer for example. My worst dealer experience would have to be with VAG, now they are a bunch of work and they all have the same attitude, an appalling one. 

Hope you find something you're happy with. 

Upt'North. 

[Greydog]

Happy with the X5 even though it has needed an engine rebuild I have had it 10+years so it's kind of like a comfortable slipper now.

Getting parts for the engine rebuild was a nightmare BMW sent incorrect parts more than once despite having the cars Vin and History they are surprisingly fragile though.

My wife's Subaru Outback on the other hand is as tough as a tough thing

Hope you find and answer

Dave

[SuzukiBoy]

Just thought I would bring you up to date…..

Car has been with 5 local workshops since, one a alloy removal specialist. All attempts to remove the wheels have been in vain. They simply will not budge.

I have discovered that, in these circumstances, I am allowed to now retrospectively reject the car and make a claim against the dealer. Of course, he doesn’t want to know and I am currently preparing a County Court Summons.

I didn’t realise that you’re legally allowed to return a car up to six years after you bought it (in Scotland, it’s five years after you first realised there was a problem).

[SilverJohn]

Wow, that's drastic but I guess in the circumstances, you have little choice. 

I take it you've asked (in writing) the dealer to remove the wheel bolts? You would probably need to get their response also in writing to substantiate the claim.

It might also be worth contacting BMW corporate to get their stance.

They're not going to like this sort of adverse publicity.

Hope you get it sorted soon.

John

[SuzukiBoy]

Thanks John. No, haven't been onto BMW yet. Court proceedings have to follow a kind of format: This is my initial email to dealer. Then, in 14 days a letter by RD has to be sent (notice of action), and then Summons. I do have the choice of also including a 3rd Party (BMW):

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Daniel,

I refer to both our telephone discussions this morning. You were really unhelpful when I spoke to you. Despite your lapse of memory, I did buy ******* from you.  As I attempted to explain, amongst your denials that it was anything to do with you, all four wheels are irremovable.

This nightmare began when I booked the car in for the wheels to be refurbished. The technician was unable to remove any of the wheel bolts, including the lock bolts. And they tried, believe me.

Subsequently, I have had both a local mechanic and a tyre workshop attempt their removal with no joy at all. I spent most of this morning driving around various other garages/workshops in an attempt to help. NO ONE is able to remove these bolts.

The car, as it is, is not fit for purpose. I cannot replace worn tyres, nor deal with any puncture damage. I currently have a fairly high end vehicle that is prohibited from any further road use. Being disabled, I need a vehicle safe in the knowledge it is fit for purpose. Can you imagine me being stuck somewhere with a flat tyre - and with no possible way of a roadside recovery firm being able to help?

As a dealer you will, doubtless, be aware of  my rights (and your obligations) under The Consumer Rights Act 2015. Legally, I am entitled to a repair or replacement, free of charge.

In the first instance, how do you propose to settle this matter?

I expect to hear from you in the next fourteen days.

Regards.

Richard *******

P. S. Just for the record, the rear wheels (I know now) have been fitted with the incorrect tyres. BMW have confirmed they should be : 255/30 R20. Those fitted are incorrect at 275/30 R20.

[Greydog]

Go for it Richard

As has been said earlier get on to BMW UK keep them aware of all actions, I am sure they don't want or need a mess like this and while they can and no doubt  will divorce them selves from any action they will put pressure on the Dealer to clean it up.

Good Luck

Dave

[SuzukiBoy]

Thanks Dave. I have this very early DRAFT email which might change ready to go to the UK CEO of BMW:

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

Hello Mr Grieve,

I am writing to you in a bid for your help and assistance.

This vehicle was purchased (from a non-franchised dealer) on Friday, 21^st June 2019. During the period between seeing it, and collecting it, the car was serviced by Lister’s in Kings Lynn, Norfolk. A “fluid” service was undertaken and they were asked to investigate a “squeal” noise from the brake pads. It was fairly noisy when braking – but disappeared thereafter. All of this was undertaken on behalf of the then owner. I was given a note to confirm the Service when I paid for and collected the car. The dealer from whom I purchased the car, confirmed that they had investigated the noise but couldn’t find anything wrong. They were loathed to change the brake pads since they were not worn below a minimum size BMW dictate. In order to investigate this brake issue, the wheels have to be removed.

During my ownership, the squeal remained for a while. Otherwise, save for a few small issues, the vehicle has performed adequately.

Two weeks ago, I summoned the services of a reliable and respected alloy wheel repairer. The wheels did have a few scuffs courtesy of the prior owner. I thought I would have them repaired in order to further enhance the car. Despite many attempts, he was unable to undo any of both the wheel lock bolts and the standard bolts. He deployed various bar extension lengths all to no avail.

Subsequently, I have had both a local mechanic and a tyre workshop attempt their removal with no joy at all. On Monday, last I spent most of the morning driving around various other garages/workshops in an attempt to help. NO ONE has been able to remove these bolts.

Quantum, at this stage, is zero since people have been very fair about it. No removal – no cost. This is precisely the reason I have not been to one of your dealers, principally since it is them who have hugely over torqued these bolts in the first instance. Of course, additionally, there remains the massive cost they would charge simply to look at the problem. Money, I can ill afford to pay.  And, frankly, shouldn’t be expected to pay. Thus far, there have been no brute force attacks and I should like to keep it that way. The wheels have not been damaged. Nonetheless, it may come to this.

The car, as it is, is not fit for its purpose. I cannot replace worn tyres, nor deal with any puncture damage. I am disabled and I depend on this vehicle. Can you imagine me being stuck somewhere with a flat tyre - and with no possible way of a roadside recovery firm being able to help?

Principally, in UK law, the dealer has some responsibility here. The car must be fit for purpose and, despite the passing of six months, it’s not. The law provides for unknown issues, quite extraordinarily, for up to six years.

The bottom line is that I have no wish to return the car. What I would like is the wheels removed, repaired and the bolts re-secured to the correct torque settings.. I suspect this will end with some form of brute force method being used, and subsequent damage to all four wheels.

At this stage, I have written to the dealer and have asked what he proposes to do about it. I am following legal protocol, nonetheless, I know he will not respond since he has made that clear in my initial telephone discussions. If I do not hear from him in fourteen days, I shall then send a letter confirming my intention to take legal action in the local County Court. A further period of time must elapse before issuing proceedings.

It has come to light, that I also have the option of including BMW as a third party in this action. In reality, there is a large element of corporate responsibility here given the over tightening of the bolts – and the fact that the car has only ever been serviced by BMW approved dealers.

I am unable to walk more than a few metres and this car is my life line.                      yet it now sits on my driveway rarely used. I am - this bit will change

In the first instance, I would be pleased to hear from you.

Regards.

R

[Greydog]

Reads well 

I agree a re think re phrasing where you have marked this will change. I notice you haven't brought out the tyre size issue yet even if they were fitted by the previous owner the Dealer has a responsibility to ensure the car is fit for sale. The fact you cant remove the wheels makes you wonder how they carried out a brake inspection? Or did they say they had because they couldn't remove the wheels Hmmm the cynic in me surfaces

Dave 

 

[baldbeardie]

I once had wheel-bolts on a Mercedes that the dealership had overtightened.  To get them undone, my tame mechanic had to use a 5-foot extension bar - and even then had to work really hard at it!    He succeeded in the end, but the bolts had been so abused that two of them sheared off whilst being undone, and several others had visible signs of having been stretched.    Even if there is no visible damage to the bolts, you should consider replacing them - you never know whether bolts that have been overtightened like that have been significantly weakened, and the cost of a few bolts is going to be a lot cheaper than losing a wheel at speed!

Colin

[SuzukiBoy]

20 hours ago, baldbeardie said:

I once had wheel-bolts on a Mercedes that the dealership had overtightened.  To get them undone, my tame mechanic had to use a 5-foot extension bar - and even then had to work really hard at it!    He succeeded in the end, but the bolts had been so abused that two of them sheared off whilst being undone, and several others had visible signs of having been stretched.    Even if there is no visible damage to the bolts, you should consider replacing them - you never know whether bolts that have been overtightened like that have been significantly weakened, and the cost of a few bolts is going to be a lot cheaper than losing a wheel at speed!

Colin

Good point Colin. Thank you.

[Martin Woodhead]

I had a similar issue recently on my 2015 BMW 3 series due to wheel bolts being over-tightened by ATS. This resulted in one of the bolts shearing off when it was next undone (when switching from summer to winter wheels).  To remedy the issue a hexagonal stud had to be welded on by a local garage and then undone with a large wrench. It sounds as if wheel bolts are generally being tightened far too much?

[SuzukiBoy]

Finally found a firm "specialising" in removing over tight lock bolts. Five and a half hours labour; over two days, + fresh new bolts and wheels are now OK. Some minor damage to the bolts tunnels if you look really hard. Firm said they have never failed yet but mine was their most challenging! They felt sorry for me since they only charged me for three hours labour.

BMW do not want to know. I thought they may have felt some moral obligation. Clearly not, gripe should be with original dealer and, to be fair, they are right.

2nd letter on way to dealer 20th Dec. Thereafter, 14 more working days then I can trigger the County Court Summons I have already compiled online. That damage to wheels + cost of the above is around £450.00. Wheels are being done 14^th Jan.

I have hated my car since all of this began. Hardly driven it at all. However, I gave it a good run today. Despite all of the problems, it did bring a smile to my face.....

[Greydog]

Glad your back in your car Richard 

Just hope common sense prevails now and you get a sensible result that takes into consideration the disruption and distress that a situation like this causes.

Fingers Crossed

Dave

[SuzukiBoy]

4 hours ago, Greydog said:

Glad your back in your car Richard 

Just hope common sense prevails now and you get a sensible result that takes into consideration the disruption and distress that a situation like this causes.

Fingers Crossed

Dave

Thanks Dave. I will keep you and this thread posted.

[SuzukiBoy]

Second letter sent to dealer today by RD....

SENT BY RECORDED DELIVERY

 Xxxxxxx

Xxxxxxx

xxxxxxx

 Dear Sirs,                                                                                                      20^th December 2019

 RE: xxxxxxxx - BMW 335d – PURCHASED FROM YOU. Collection Date: 21^st June 2019

Fourteen working days have now elapsed since my email communication of the 2^nd December, 2019. You never responded to it, much the same as you refused to return either of my telephone calls.

I have attached hereto a copy of the above, for ease of reference. This letter follows on from what was said in that email.

(1) THE BASIS OF MY COMPLAINT

The first time any of these wheels were required to be removed was when I booked them in to have them polished. This was on the 27^th November 2019. None of the four lock bolts, nor the other 17mm (across flats) bolts were able to be removed.

As you are fully aware, I am disabled. As soon as I became acquainted with the inability to remove my vehicle’s wheels, I temporality stopped driving the car. What on earth might have happened had I suffered a puncture on a rural road, late at night? Or, indeed, at any other time and anywhere.

I spoke to you twice, on the morning of the 2^nd December, with regard to this issue. You ducked and dived, naturally, denying any responsibly. You initially refuted ever having sold me the car. You promised to call me back. You never did.

I took the car to SR Vehicle Services (IP27 ONG). He used a huge high torque “gun” (an item normally used to remove HGV wheel nuts) in an attempt to free these lock bolts – without success. Two other firms in the industrial estate (Brandon) wouldn’t even attempt it (I told them the history). I eventually tried Thetford Tyres and Exhausts. They, likewise, couldn’t assist they did (however) recommend me to a firm who specialise in removing wrongly over tightened wheel bolts.

I took the car there last Thursday. They had it there until fairly late on the Friday (5^th December to 6^th December 2019).

They did finally manage to remove the bolts, having spent five and half hours doing so. I asked them to replace them with standard high tensile 17mm bolts. They did so, and used genuine BMW parts. I can’t ever go through this again. These items are, of course, considerably cheaper than like for like lock bolts.

They felt some sympathy for me and only charged me for three and a half hours labour. This is evidenced by the invoice attached.

They did cause some unavoidable damage to the bolt tunnels on the alloy wheels and this also forms the basis of my complaint. I have received an estimate for the damage caused. This is attached hereto. The work is scheduled to take place on the 14^th January 2020.

(2) QUANTUM

There is no claim for my time or inconvenience. I have attempted to be fair here. Nonetheless, the amount outstanding is thus:

£208.20 – Lock nuts removal.

£200.00 – Refurbishment of damaged wheel bolt tunnels.

£408.20 + any subsequent court costs incurred

(3) CONSUMER LAW

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 provides protection for purchasers of most products, including new and used cars purchased from a dealer.

Moreover, the law states that a vehicle must be of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described.

(a) To be of satisfactory quality, a car must not be faulty or broken when purchased, and it must be of a standard that a reasonable person would expect, taking into account its age and mileage if it’s second hand.

(b) The car should be fit for the purpose for which it’s been supplied

The car has neither met expectations, nor was it fit for purpose. The vehicle had, four irremovable wheels. I would suggest that, all likely purchasers of any car, would reasonably expect to be able to remove the wheels. Punctures, tyre replacement and brake maintenance ALL rely on their removal.

(c) If a problem is fou

nd after 30 days, but within six months of purchase, I am actually entitled to request a replacement vehicle. That is not my position here. I simply require compensating for monies I have had to spend when, in the normal course of events, this would not have been necessary – had the vehicle met the criteria of (a) and (b) above.

(4) NOTICE OF ACTION

Kindly remit the amount owed within the next fourteen working days. If I don’t receive payment within the timescale stated, County Court proceedings will be issued against you. Accordingly, please accept this communication as formal notification of that impending action.

Yours faithfully,

 

Richard xxxxxx

Attachments:

1) Original Sales Invoice (ORIGINAL SALES INVOICE)

2) My email of 2^nd December 2019 (Initial Complaint)

3) Invoice dated 5^th December 2019 – Work carried out to remove lock bolts (Vickers Motors Invoice)

4) Estimate to repair bolt tunnels (Wheel_Damage_Estimate)

[Greydog]

Well laid out case Richard and under the circumstances a very reasonable cost 

Lets hope they see sense and settle before costs are involved

Happy Christmas

Dave

[SuzukiBoy]

Thanks Dave,

Happy Christmas.