Diagnostic results/gearbox issues

[Kenny535d]

Hey all

So, had my car in the gearbox specialist today for a service. Unfortunately they have said the box is done and quoted me 3k to refurb it and replace the clutches etc inside. The reading they told me it should be was 150mbar ish but only 2 of them were. Worst one was reading at 700. I’ve no idea what that means but he explained that’s the reason for the slipping in some circumstances. Also the torque converter needs doing or replaced. I am not gonna pay that in a repair for a car that cost me just over half of the repair lol. 
 

I’ve also attached some pics of the diagnostics they done. They didn’t want to give me this for some reason but got it eventually. Question is, do I get a second hand box and work through the fault list or cut my losses and find another car?  
 

With the amount of faults the ecu is showing I’m surprised it even starts never mind runs 🤣

[Greydog]

Morning Kenny

That is quite a list but the only reading for the transmission says "No Faults" ?? First if you examine the fault list many are repeated suggesting they were triggered probably by low voltage at the battery at some point and held in the memory. Also many are related an obvious example is the CID and IKE (instrument cluster) and LCM (light module) faults. Autologic doesn't identify between Fault present and Fault memory. The result as you see is repeated faults. Question did they clear down the faults and re-scan (I doubt it) the first action should be clear all faults and a re-scan that will show only present/actual faults. Your LCM faults trigger faults upstream and down stream, Do your instruments work OK and light up? Does the HVAC work? 

Now the gearbox was it/has it been slipping or making hard changes? Or did you just put it in for a service? The box in my X5 deals with similar torque to yours plus a bit more HP it lives a hard life towing a couple of fat horses about during the summer and a fair bit of off road stuff. Tempt fate now, it's covered close to 160k (regular Fluid changes) they told me the TC was on it's way about 50k ago (showing Lock Up Faults) I treated it to a tube of DR Tranny and yes the TC is getting noisy but it still drives well all changes up and down are smooth (oh and TC lock up fault hasn't returned). So how does it drive? what errors/warning lights are on the dash? 

If I were you I would get myself a copy of INPA/ISTA, you can buy a copy already mounted on a laptop should be about £150 or so, probably about the same as the cost of the list you have? It will give you the ability to scan your own car it will interrogate ALL modules and you have the ability to reset and rescan, plus it should have a copy of TIS (BMW technical information) you will learn that a fault code can be a symptom not always the cause.

One of our sons has a Toyota Pickup the EML popped up so he came around and used a scanner O2 sensor pre-cat was the fault. As it was going in for service he didn't reset the light, the Garage rang him "new O2 sensor needed he picked the truck up drove 5 miles EML came on. Back to the garage (Toyota Dealer) must be a faulty sensor so changed again off he went only for the EML to come on?? On the Saturday morning we found 3 perished Vacuum lines on the inlet side we replaced them all no more EML 

I would just not trust their diagnosis particularly if your cars driving OK

Dave

 

[TCon]

Hi Kenny,

After reading the list I immediately thought the same as Dave, most of these are due to the battery getting low. As Dave said said, clear all faults and see what actually comes back. I have done this thousands of times with BMW's and more often or not you only have one or two faults. My son in law actually used this to get a lot of money off his e90 when he scanned the car on the forecourt of a garage and later found nothing wrong with it.

It sounds to me like the place you went to either doesn't have the knowledge they say they do, or else they do, and they deliberately didn't tell you this information. Either way I would find a different place to bring your car. Ask them why on the report it says 'Transmission Management (EGS/SMG) no fault'. 

Also 3k to refurb the box? sounds a bit much. These boxes are used in plenty of brands of cars around the world and not just BMW, so surely they dont cost that much for a fully refurbed one if it came to it. What symptoms are you getting that brought you to this crowd?

Dave, your a very knowledgeable chap, do you have a link for Kenny to a reputable place to download ISTA+? because it sounds like he could use it. 

[Kenny535d]

2 hours ago, Greydog said:

Morning Kenny

That is quite a list but the only reading for the transmission says "No Faults" ?? First if you examine the fault list many are repeated suggesting they were triggered probably by low voltage at the battery at some point and held in the memory. Also many are related an obvious example is the CID and IKE (instrument cluster) and LCM (light module) faults. Autologic doesn't identify between Fault present and Fault memory. The result as you see is repeated faults. Question did they clear down the faults and re-scan (I doubt it) the first action should be clear all faults and a re-scan that will show only present/actual faults. Your LCM faults trigger faults upstream and down stream, Do your instruments work OK and light up? Does the HVAC work? 

Now the gearbox was it/has it been slipping or making hard changes? Or did you just put it in for a service? The box in my X5 deals with similar torque to yours plus a bit more HP it lives a hard life towing a couple of fat horses about during the summer and a fair bit of off road stuff. Tempt fate now, it's covered close to 160k (regular Fluid changes) they told me the TC was on it's way about 50k ago (showing Lock Up Faults) I treated it to a tube of DR Tranny and yes the TC is getting noisy but it still drives well all changes up and down are smooth (oh and TC lock up fault hasn't returned). So how does it drive? what errors/warning lights are on the dash? 

If I were you I would get myself a copy of INPA/ISTA, you can buy a copy already mounted on a laptop should be about £150 or so, probably about the same as the cost of the list you have? It will give you the ability to scan your own car it will interrogate ALL modules and you have the ability to reset and rescan, plus it should have a copy of TIS (BMW technical information) you will learn that a fault code can be a symptom not always the cause.

One of our sons has a Toyota Pickup the EML popped up so he came around and used a scanner O2 sensor pre-cat was the fault. As it was going in for service he didn't reset the light, the Garage rang him "new O2 sensor needed he picked the truck up drove 5 miles EML came on. Back to the garage (Toyota Dealer) must be a faulty sensor so changed again off he went only for the EML to come on?? On the Saturday morning we found 3 perished Vacuum lines on the inlet side we replaced them all no more EML 

I would just not trust their diagnosis particularly if your cars driving OK

Dave

 

Hey Dave

funny you should mention the low voltage, I had issues with the battery connection sometimes working loose. This has been resolved now. Sometimes when I pressed the start button the car would just click then there would be no power, I knew when that happened the connection had come loose again.

I didn't ask them to do a diagnostics, they said they just do that anyway to find any issues with the box. They said there were no faults stored for the box, only that some of the mbar readings were high. I do have some jerky changes now and then plus the slipping sometimes, these issues are pretty much non existent whilst driving in manual mode, do however have a constant surging on the revs on cruise/part throttle . This is why I thought it was possibly low on box oil and why I booked it into them. They are a zf box 'specialist'

I will be buying my own ista shortly, on a plus note they must have cleared the fault codes as the SRS warnings haven't appeared back since it was in.

The errors on the dash were the SRS and still have oil sensor and pdc, these just flash up on IDrive though, not on the actual dash if you get me.

[Kenny535d]

57 minutes ago, TCon said:

Hi Kenny,

After reading the list I immediately thought the same as Dave, most of these are due to the battery getting low. As Dave said said, clear all faults and see what actually comes back. I have done this thousands of times with BMW's and more often or not you only have one or two faults. My son in law actually used this to get a lot of money off his e90 when he scanned the car on the forecourt of a garage and later found nothing wrong with it.

It sounds to me like the place you went to either doesn't have the knowledge they say they do, or else they do, and they deliberately didn't tell you this information. Either way I would find a different place to bring your car. Ask them why on the report it says 'Transmission Management (EGS/SMG) no fault'. 

Also 3k to refurb the box? sounds a bit much. These boxes are used in plenty of brands of cars around the world and not just BMW, so surely they dont cost that much for a fully refurbed one if it came to it. What symptoms are you getting that brought you to this crowd?

Dave, your a very knowledgeable chap, do you have a link for Kenny to a reputable place to download ISTA+? because it sounds like he could use it. 

Thank you for the reply.

The codes have been cleared as above so when I get my ISTA I can recheck and see if any others have popped up.

The place I used was solely a gearbox 'specialist' who do a lot of work on these boxes. Did wonder why the price was as high though tbh. They based everything on the mbar readings from the clutches. I've read a lot on them and seems to be fixed by replacing seals and sleeves?

I can't understand the no fault reading for the box either.

[Greydog]

Hi Kenny

When you say surging in cruise control if you turn off cruise does it come out with a jerk and slow? If it does get the throttle body checked any air/vacuum leaks could be your cause. If it has been stripped to clean the EGR always use a new "O" ring. (3 guess's how I learned that) check all the Vac lines as well

Normally any faults with the ZF mechatronics or valve body inside the box will throw a fault with the gearbox controller. Did they do a filter and fluid change ? 

Often you will find that a Fault code will have a knock on that triggers others due to interrupted or corrupted signals over the Bus system if you try to clear the knock on fault it won't reset due to it still thinking there is a fault up or downstream. So I reset all codes then visit each module individually to clear down any memory/shadow faults. BMW Thermal Oil level Sensor they are a complete PITA as to get at it you have to drain the sump. I would wait till oil change time then change the sensor at the same time. AUC sensor is part of the HVAC system again a part that either works forever or never !!! Easy to get at and change just make sure you get the right one.

Check the main battery connection/charging point under the bonnet they cause all sorts of hard to trace issues if someone has undone it for some reason and not tightened it up again.

SRS fault the favourite here is the passenger seat occupancy sensor. A scan with INPA?ISTA will nail it down. PDC it will be one of the sensors again a scan will tell you which one (4 front 4 rear) By the way BMW PDC systems hate jet washes and car washes mine go on strike if I use them.

Dave

 

 

[Kenny535d]

Thanks again Dave

They asked me if I wanted them to do an oil and filter change. I said no. They wanted like 300 quid. Didn’t see the point at the moment till I figure what I’ll do. I’ve found a second hand box that’s had a full recon 2 years ago for £650 with the tc. Seems reasonable enough? Just waiting for proof of it before I decide what to do. 
 

Sorry, I prob didn’t explain properly what I meant by cruise. I didn’t mean cruise control. Just meant whilst cruising along at any given speed. There’s no jerking etc if I do use the cruise control and turn it off. 

[Greydog]

Morning Kenny

First get yourself a tube of DR Tranny it is one of the "Snake oil" remedies that I have found that actually works it may help while you work out the best course of action

When I buy my gearbox service kit i always surf the Net last one came from an Ebay supplier correct ZF fluid filter gasket and bolts £132 18 months ago. Takes about an hour to do (I have a big shallow plastic box/bread tray with no holes to catch the old fluid in (there is still a fair bit comes out when you drop the sump caught me out first time) 

If you get good proof that the box was rebuilt that sounds a bargain I would think it has been drained for shipping so you will still need fluid and worth doing a filter change as well.

OK cruise = constant throttle setting, that would lead me more towards checking for air/vacuum leaks on the inlet side. 

Dave

[Kenny535d]

1 hour ago, Greydog said:

Morning Kenny

First get yourself a tube of DR Tranny it is one of the "Snake oil" remedies that I have found that actually works it may help while you work out the best course of action

When I buy my gearbox service kit i always surf the Net last one came from an Ebay supplier correct ZF fluid filter gasket and bolts £132 18 months ago. Takes about an hour to do (I have a big shallow plastic box/bread tray with no holes to catch the old fluid in (there is still a fair bit comes out when you drop the sump caught me out first time) 

If you get good proof that the box was rebuilt that sounds a bargain I would think it has been drained for shipping so you will still need fluid and worth doing a filter change as well.

OK cruise = constant throttle setting, that would lead me more towards checking for air/vacuum leaks on the inlet side. 

Dave

Hey dave

I’ll have a look for that. May help in the interim. 
 

The box I mentioned is still on the guys car. I did have a think on driving down to pick it up and booking somewhere near there to get it fitted on the same day

[Kenny535d]

Hey all

So I’ve got the cable and got ISTA up and running. There’s only a few codes persistently popping up since the place cleared them a couple of weeks ago;

AUC sensor

Rear stratification controller 

Fogging sensor

PDC rear centre left (pdc doesn’t work, on ISTA how can I find out more details, I’m sure I read there has to be more than a few sensors out for the system not to work?)

Passenger seat occupancy comes up as not fitted 🧐

 

I’ve reset them again through ISTA but it tells me to turn off ignition and remove key then ISTA just stays on the screen for a long time until I got bored and hit cancel. Even after pressing cancel they disappear until I do another test 😕

 

any hints and tips for me?

 

😊

 

[Greydog]

Morning Kenny

First your persistent Faults, 4 Faults from where you started pretty damn good I say well done Mate.

AUC sensor normally mounted on the top side of the fan housing I have tried cleaning the filter and even changing the filter material in the sensor it's part of the HVAC. They go wonky on a regular basis but don't seem to have much effect on how the HVAC works (well not on the X5 anyway) it is only my "if it's there it should work" attitude that keeps me changing it. If replacing make sure you have the correct part number.

Rear Stratification controller (why can;t BMW just say Rear Climate Control ?? Is it turned on in the iDrive learned that from Bro inlaws cars, There should be a control panel under a cover bottom of the console that lets you select settings (a mini HVAC) set it to auto) Also after all the things you have discovered is it connected ??

Fogging Sensor Under the cover behind the rear view mirror measures humidity to prevent screen misting. They either work or don't normally they come with a tool to help fitting.

PDC, Passenger side Centre Rear sensor needs the connector cleaned and checked if it still doesn't work change the sensor. I keep a cople of sensors as they seem to hate Jet Wash or Car Wash on the X5 and contra rear right is a regular culprit.

Now INPA/ISTA when using it, First make sure you have a fully charged battery,  turn the ignition on DON'T START the engine. Carry out scan clear any faults. Turn Off Ignition.

PA Soft BMW 1.4.0 doesn't seem to mind if the engine is running or not

Almost done Kenny

Dave

 

[Kenny535d]

Top man Dave. 
 

I’ll check the wiring for the seat occupancy sensor. Seems very odd and not particularly surprising if it’s not even there 🤣

[Kenny535d]

Surprise surprise. Checked for the rear climate controls. Nothing there. Just a wee storage compartment. Wires all laying in behind it. 
 

Another ‘mod’ 🤦‍♂️

[Greydog]

You really did find a super star with the guy who owned your car seems his mantra was "if in doubt cut it out" what a nutter.

Is the connector there or did he cut the wires !! If you want to reinstate it talk to someone like Quarry Motors and ask if they can supply a climate unit with the connectors. That way it's a solder job cable for cable.

Dave

[Kenny535d]

Thankfully the wires are all intact. Just need to find the controls.