My F45 225Xe takes forever to warm up!

[Tech-Jock]

Hello all,

As we're all aware, It's suddenly winter!   So what better time to bring up a heating problem I have?  Actually I have two problems with the heating in but I'll just ask about one of them in this post: 

When driving on petrol, the heater takes ages to warm up - 10 to 15 minutes perhaps before the air 'starts' to be noticeably warmer (although it does get very warm eventually).  In my previous car (a 2016 Ford Focus) the heat started coming through in two or three minutes, gradually getting warmer from there.  Back in the day, you might have seen me with a piece of cardboard covering my radiator or I might even have thought about putting in a new thermostat with a lower opening temp but I can't imagine we're still doing things like that - especially on a BM!!

Might there be anything simple I could do to improve this?

Cheers!

Julian

BTW - The other problem is that when I'm driving on the battery, I get zero heat - ever.  I'm not going to dwell on this one in this post because now I've had my new 12V battery installed by BMW, I'm going to reset the codes next week and see what comes back about the heater.  So more on this then.

[Greydog]

Morning Julian

Both my X5's are warm within a mile or two of driving off, maybe 5 mins in time. So you do have a problem my advice would be change the main thermostat.

You need the codes read to find the fault on the e Drive heating

Dave

[Tech-Jock]

Hello again Dave,

So just an update on the above.  I bought my own Bimmerlink and Bimmercode and a BlueTooth OBD device, so now I can read the codes myself (a little power in the wrong hands lol).

To try to reestablish a baseline, last week I cleared the codes (some it wouldn't let me), prior to driving down to my Dad's for Christmas (160 miles from Derby to Wokingham).  When I got there I re-scanned the codes.  The ones I got back, I pretty much get all the time (plus a few more like the Dynamic Stability Control one that I haven't seen before) and I think I'm going to have to get them checked out by a competent garage.  Strangely, the errors I was receiving a month back about the auxiliary heater are gone (I will look for that error report and post it in the next message), however I still have zero heat when driving on battery.  So strange that I have no error code to point to now.

Here's what I got.

Info Memory
Date: 23/12/2022 15:22:43
VIN: WBA2C72040V365920
01 Airbag
1 error
01A033: DEM_INT_RAM_SINGLE_BIT
10 Central gateway module
7 errors
101008: Non-resolvable ambiguous routing - SG not in the SVT target table
100600: Flexray protocol startup time is too high
100100: Contact to FZM slave lost
100104: HW Weckgrund ZGW
100300: Commissioning could not be carried out because TAS is already busy
100203: DM software error info warning
100204: Message monitoring: no system context signal
12 Motor electronics
2 errors
CDA564: Communication: Signal (REIN_GRDT) in A-CAN, message (data gear train, 0x1AF):
invalid
1FB102: Check control message (ID 828): Vehicle ready to drive

====================================

Error Memory
Date: 23/12/2022 15:23:45
VIN: WBA2C72040V365920
12 Motor electronics
3 errors
21B024: DOBD-TFM tank flap, lock control: malfunction or line interruption
21B019: DOBD-TFM fuel filler flap, position sensor / switch circuit: Malfunction or open
circuit
138702: Radiator shutter: upper stop detected too early
1D Hybrid pressure refuelling electronic control unit
2 errors
806012: Tank flap sensor, signal line: interruption or short circuit to ground
806003: Actuator for tank flap: interruption
29 Dynamic stability control MK60 E5
1 error
480ACF: Triggering of the anti power hop function

====================================

Permanent Errors
Date: 23/12/2022 15:24:45
VIN: WBA2C72040V365920
No errors found

[Tech-Jock]

Here is the whole set of codes I got back in early November (before replacing the 12V battery),  The key thing (hopefully) in the below mess are the heating system references (which I'm not getting now):

 

Info memory
Date: 11/10/2022, 18:16
VIN: WBA2C72040V365920
01 Airbag
1 error
01A033: DEM_INT_RAM_SINGLE_BIT
07 Accumulator-management electronics
3 errors
21F21A: VSM_EVENT_VEHICLESTATE
21F217: DM_EVENT_ZEITBOTSCHAFTTIMEOUT_ZGW
21F1BB: HVS: Battery aging: online capacity determination out of date
10 Central gateway module
8 errors
101008: Non-resolvable ambiguous routing - SG not in the SVT target table
100600: Flexray protocol startup time is too high
100601: Unexpected asynchronous state on Flexraybus
100100: Contact to FZM slave lost
100104: HW Weckgrund ZGW
100300: Commissioning could not be carried out because TAS is already busy
100203: DM software error info warning
100204: Message monitoring: no system context signal
1
12 Motor electronics
9 errors
21A11A: Emergency run manager: request for deactivation of MSA with combustion
engine, switch-on request from electrical machine control unit
235410: Emergency run manager: Request to increase idle speed from the electric
machine control unit
21A11F: Emergency run manager: Request for deactivation of the combustion engine range
display from the electric machine control unit
21A028: Emergency run manager: Request for deactivation of the high-voltage starter
generator starting device from the electrical machine control unit
1FB601: Check control message (ID 450): Auto Start Stop function deactivated
1FB101: Power management: Battery falls below upper startability limit
1FBD05: Check control message (ID 807): Disconnect the charging cable
11B501: High fuel pressure after injection has been released: Pressure too low
11B401: High fuel pressure during or after the injection is released (2nd environmental
condition sentence after time delay): Pressure too low
1D Hybrid pressure refuelling electronic control unit
2 errors
1D0001: Message (vehicle status, 0x3A0) is missing
1D0040: Watchdog reset
3A Electrical machine electronics 2
1 error
E70C3A: DOBD - IHKA - AC-LIN: EDH does not answer
2
40 Car access system
10 errors
03019B: FH BFH: Reversing in emergency mode
80402C: NVM EEPROM driver error
8040BC: IBS Wakeup: implausible wake-up signal
8040C7: Intelligent battery sensor (IBS): recharge limit reached
8040C8: Intelligent battery sensor (IBS): Upper startability limit reached
8040CA: Intelligent battery sensor (IBS): lower start capability limit reached
80414D: Remote Door Lock (RDL): Successfully carried out
8041A8: Welcome Light repeat lock active
8043D4: Electric steering column lock (ELV): ELV master - repetition strategy (sequence
repetition) successful
93071F: Outgoing error message buffer is full
56 Roof function centre
3 errors
801A0E: NVM_E_INTEGRITY_FAILED
801A20: CAN_E_TIMEOUT
801A57: Anti-theft alarm system: deactivation of IRS and inclination sensor via
customer function
60 Instrument panel
3 errors
930006: MOST: Light goes out unexpectedly
3
E12C2F: Interface HU (acknowledgment request combination, 0x172): signal faulty
B7F79A: Combination: with fading out of the electric range
61 Combox emergency call
9 errors
610006: CAN interface - send buffer full
610019: NVM integrity check failed
E14405: CAN message timeout GPS_CTI_MOST
E14406: CAN message timeout GPS_PO_EXTS_MOST
E14426: Invalid signal in CAN message GPS_PO_EXTS_MOST
E1442C: Invalid signal in CAN message STAT_ZV_KLAPPEN
E14413: Timeout of CAN message STAT_GANG_RUECKWAERTS
E14414: CAN message STAT_ZV_KLAPPEN exceeded time
E14437: Invalid signal in CAN message GPS_PO_MOST
63 Headunit/radio
1 error
8BAC73: NVM_E_REQ_FAILED
78 Automatic heating and air conditioning
3 errors
078003: NVM_E_REQ_FAILED
07802B: COMM_E_NET_START_IND_CHANNEL_0
078043: LINIF_E_RESPONSE
 

[Greydog]

As you changed  the Battery have you been into settings on the car and reset stuff in there also check the main thermostat

Dave

[Tech-Jock]

1 hour ago, Greydog said:

As you changed  the Battery have you been into settings on the car and reset stuff in there also check the main thermostat

Dave

The errors that I posted in my first post of Dec. 28th, are the errors that I now still get *after* clearing all the errors in Bimmerlink.  Strangely, they do not include the original heater related messages that I got before.

As regards your suggestion to 'check the main thermostat'.  Do you mean with Bimmerlink?  If so, do you know how would I do that?  I've already monitored the coolant temp, which looks normal (yet I don't get heat of course).

Cheers!

Julian

[Greydog]

Morning Julian

While diagnostic apps are a good guide they don't fix things on their own. Take a look at www.realoem.com put the last 7 digits of your Vin into the search box it will bring up your model. Then search the sections for information, each section will provide small exploded drawings showing where things fit.

I have never had an F45 to fiddle with but from memory there is an Electric coolant pump is that running? The electric coolant pump works alongside the main engine driven water pump and thermostat if the thermostat is stuck or failed it will need changing if I was in there I would change the water pump as a precaution.

Dave

 

Quote

 

 

[Tech-Jock]

Good questions.  As always, the answer may not be so simple.  I don't even see a thermostat on the diagrams per se (although I think I have seen them for sale, supposedly for my car).  Maybe I don't see it because it's incorporated into one of the water pumps - as suggested by this eBay ad: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203998329786?epid=2322048505&hash=item2f7f3f7bba:g:tAQAAOSwx~xirYS9&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4C45FGjO0ZBSB5yoYiKvz6Em8VMpa2K%2BTlrmqhHR9z0MEMONaBdJz9vlYr3n5eglXIwS0Gt%2Fin934YiRltbfCChTq7P89PI0D4iqEVGEsN7A4zUXsWvJ1MuF7xc8nuGQ0yuCXYeJ93cUQqrv0YcM8t6tdaeiktS1UiCIgb647n9aoURka2czLvk09XNfgE26LuR1vGlRZ%2B0pVfTEYwsmGAxgzT0V2jFxTiak3Yb%2BdqVZxqh184wslpyY0udf%2FnXdhVJncGXPmv288jsrx5vYy9mnbUry5WefBCeJljA26ASf|tkp%3ABFBM3p-Vnq5h .

Anyway, the main page for my car is here:  https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/partgrp?id=2C72-EUR-09-2016-F45-BMW-225xe

So the relevant diagrams seem to be:

• https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/partgrp?id=2C72-EUR-09-2016-F45-BMW-225xe&mg=64
• https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=2C72-EUR-09-2016-F45-BMW-225xe&diagId=17_1055
• https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=2C72-EUR-09-2016-F45-BMW-225xe&diagId=17_1044

It looks like there might be two separate electric motors involved (as well as the auxiliary heater for heat while driving on electric power).

The problem is that unlike cars back in the day, you can see almost nothing of the engine by simply looking at it.  Every space is filled with something and you can barely get your hand in.

I would assume that each component has a sensor that could potentially be monitored with a tool like Bimmerlink.  I don't know how else you would diagnose anything in this car!  I haven't been very successful in finding the right things to monitor yet though.  For instance, I found this sensor 'Actual speed electr. water pump rpm'.  But as you can see from the log that I produced (attached), the value is always zero.  Does that mean it's broken?  Who knows?

I'm really thinking that I am going to have to get BMW to diagnose the problem(s) and then decide what to do about what they tell me.

Thanks for your help.

Julian

 

Quick edit:  Looking at this eBay ad, the thermostat does appear to be a separate part on its own...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384685699776?hash=item59910df2c0:g:N8oAAOSwJhRh5ptw&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4HqbkOosC0mLnTG%2Fk3aZCPAuDiUpHeoQtjOKUJQ9hYriIiokPBHoT475hl1PJdiz426WbRvnYIg4yCNs79ohDxVAjxrUVrPbJTnvFNSPOvEAwAjf%2BG68b0sSfae3Eq1p2W7dYPpQYk5zF2Ji1Q28h%2Bw2e62H6lOUFmINugJ%2FqbRW2A862K8XzRzbmADC8r8VyHscfQPTnRyaX1q9m8JzkmLfjNjxeDf4nnxnnNShOuxegC37CBBB2ujERktvjhHV4Z8cNhwq%2BkbsS4TJ%2F12CmdNERO1rRrVx3afaMLHdyUDn|tkp%3ABk9SR4DWyZ6uYQ

Log-2022-12-26--11-47-16.csv

Edited January 2, 2023 by Tech-Jock
Found some more relevant info

[Greydog]

If you go back to Realoem first look at the Engine section you will see where the Waterpump and Thermostat housing are mounted

To get to them you do have to take off acoustic covers and other bits. If you look at the Radiator section you will find the Electric Water Pump. As your diagnostics are showing 0 movement have you checked associated fuses and relays?

One of the main advantages of using a BMW diagnostic program such as ISTA is it come with BMW workshop information and diagrams. Realoem is a part of the diagnostic as well making sure if buying parts you get the right part number.

Slow warm up is normally a sign of a thermostat failed in the fully open position (or even a missing one) 

Dave

 

[Tech-Jock]

Thanks Dave - I didn't really dig deep enough did I?

I totally agree about the thermostat.  But as I described above, the guy at the local (non-BMW specialist) garage was adamant it wouldn't be that.

I will see what I can find out about the fuses as that did occur to me.  I did try to find out what fuse would be relevant to the auxiliary heater (as that was the first problem that I was trying to solve) but I did not succeed in finding out what fuse that was.  Even if I replaced the thermostat (or otherwise solved that side of things), that would not fix the heating while driving electric problem.

Cheers!

Julian

[Greydog]

As the engine is not running in E mode it makes sense that if electric pump is not running the coolant won't circulate that is where I would start

Dave