E39 530i Crank No Start After Front End Collision

[TinoTheGreek]

Hello there 👋

I have a 2003 BMW 530i that was hit in the front, nothing crazy. Replaced front end parts with parts from a donor vehicle, and it cranks, but doesn't want to start. Runs off starting fluid. After digging around I find out that no power is going to the fuel pump. Checked all the fuses throughout the vehicle, all in their designated spots and none blown. For some strange reason half of the fuse rail behind the glove box isn't getting power, and the OBDII port isn't working. But all other electronics in the car are working. I did some digging and found that the Fuse Distribution Block that sits under the Passenger Side (Right Side) Carpet is badly corroded. I would assume this is why half of the rail isn't getting power and the OBDII port isn't working. Sunday coming I'm also going to do the following:

-Test All Relays

-Test Camshaft Position Sensor

-Test Crankshaft Position Sensor

-Test EWS3 Security Module (I doubt this is the problem since it cranks)

-Test DME

-Check 20a Fuse By DME

-Inspect X183 Connecter For Corrosion (Sits Under Driver Side/Left Side Carpet)

-Replace Fuse Block Under Passenger Side Carpet Because Of Corrosion

-Test MAF Sensor

-Check Positive Battery Terminal To See If Airbag Battery Safety Sensor Blew

 

Other than those things, any pointers? Any help would be appreciated!

[Greydog]

Hi Constantino

Welcome to the Forum

Check the water drains under the bonnet against the firewall if they get blocked they are a source of water getting in

Make sure you check the Fuel Pump Relay while your in there

The rest you have pretty much got covered by your post, the only addition would be a copy of BMW 1.4.0 about £20 put it on an old laptop it will give dealer level diagnostics and programming (once the OBD port is awake) also if you aren't already aware www.realoem.com is an online parts list put the last 7 digits of your Vin into the search box it will bring up your model very useful to ensure parts are correct.

Good Luck

Dave

[TinoTheGreek]

10 hours ago, Greydog said:

Hi Constantino

Welcome to the Forum

Check the water drains under the bonnet against the firewall if they get blocked they are a source of water getting in

Make sure you check the Fuel Pump Relay while your in there

The rest you have pretty much got covered by your post, the only addition would be a copy of BMW 1.4.0 about £20 put it on an old laptop it will give dealer level diagnostics and programming (once the OBD port is awake) also if you aren't already aware www.realoem.com is an online parts list put the last 7 digits of your Vin into the search box it will bring up your model very useful to ensure parts are correct.

Good Luck

Dave

Many thanks for the welcome Dave 🙏

The water came from the sunroof, but not from the drains. It turned out that the sunroof hadn't closed all the way, it was about a fingers size still open but appeared closed from the inside. By the time I realized it was too late.

I'm planning on checking all the relays in the car just to make sure everything is in working order so gotcha on that. Where is the Fuel Pump Relay located tho? I keep getting mixed results online. Some sources say it's the teal relay behind the glovebox, other sources say it's the teal relay in the box with the DME, and I saw 1 or 2 people say it's the teal relay in the trunk. I would imagine this depends on trim and year tho.

thanks for the BMW 1.4.0 info, I appreciate that. realoem is great, I've used it in the past.

So far from the original list I only got to check the grounds in the engine bay, the fuses in the box with the DME in it & the Positive Battery Wire. They are all fine except for the Battery Wire Sensor. Unfortunately the charge went off from the accident. Before I proceed I'll just replace the Fuse Distribution Block as well as the Positive Battery Wire and go from there.

I'll update the thread when I get results in about two weeks or so.

[Greydog]

Morning Tino

You have one of the "Hunt the Relay models 😅 From memory the Fuel Pump relay on most of the E39's I have seen was in the Boot righthand side position 2 if the old grey matter is working

My X5 E53 4.6is had a host of niggly issues that turned out to be Earth related so work through all the earth points. 

Good Luck 

Dave

[TinoTheGreek]

UPDATE:

Okay, I'm back with not so good news. Still no power to fuel pump lol.

Let's run down everything that I've done.

 

-Fused Power Distribution Block that lives under the passenger side (right side) carpet was replaced and tested. All contacts are receiving power and fuses are good.

-Positive Battery Cable Sensor w/Terminal was replaced.

-All Fuses have been checked, they are all good and in their correct spots. No fuses are missing.

-All Relays have been checked, they are all good (checked for click with 12v power and also for continuity) except the two long Relays behind the glove box (a black one that says "Stromabschaltung" which I believe is the Relay For Consumer Shutdown? - Not sure what it does. And a green one that says "DRM2" which I'm not sure what that does either.) There's a long brown Relay in the engine bay that I checked with 12v which clicks, but I wasn't getting any continuity so I'm going to replace that along with the two relays behind the glove box to be on the safe side.  I'll also add that the contacts on the Black "Stromabschaltung" Relay/Relay For Consumer Shutdown? were black like they had been burned.

-Crankshaft Position Sensor was tested and it's fine. (While I was checking this, I noticed that a black wire by the starter was disconnected...)

-Camshaft Position Sensor was tested and it's fine.

-EWS3 Security Module works as intended, not causing any issues.

-Tested MAF sensor and it's fine.

-The DME should be fine, the main relay still clicks on when I key on the vehicle so...

 

I did not get a chance to inspect the X183 Connecter that sits under driver side (left side carpet) for corrosion, but that shouldn't interfere with the starting of the vehicle. That is more so to fix my issue with the OBD II port.

 

Still no power to the fuel pump.

 

Running my VIN through realoem I believe my fuel pump relay is the one I have an arrow pointed to, didn't get a chance to confirm that though. At this point I need to figure out what isn't supplying power to what.

 

Sunday coming I will do the following:

-Remove the intake manifold and figure out where that black wire connects

-Confirm the location of the Fuel Pump Relay

-Backtrack the wiring from the fuel pump & test wires to figure out at which point the power stops (at fuse, at relay or a random broken wire)

 

That's all I can think of so if anyone else has any advice I'd appreciate it!

 

[Greydog]

Hi Tino

Seems like you have done a thorough job 

The Relay you have highlighted is the Fuel Pump Relay as far as I am aware I will have a dig into the wiring diagrams for the starter to see if I can help with the Black wire

Dave

[Greydog]

Hi Tino

Dont know if you are aware but take a look at  www.pelicanparts.com look at their "how too" section they have some great stuff with pictures and descriptions

The black wire is it solid Black or Black with a Green trace?

Dave

[TinoTheGreek]

40 minutes ago, Greydog said:

Hi Tino

Dont know if you are aware but take a look at  www.pelicanparts.com look at their "how too" section they have some great stuff with pictures and descriptions

The black wire is it solid Black or Black with a Green trace?

Dave

Many thanks Dave, 

I'll definitely check out pelican parts. For the two wires, I believe that one is a ground for the unloader relays, and the other is from the start relay to engage the starter. Not entirely sure tho.

I didn't get a good look at it so I'm not sure if it was black or black with a green trace. I won't be able to confirm until tomorrow morning.

It has to be one of the two wires going to this starter I found online tho as it comes out of that same harness shielding. It only could be the ground for the unloader relays because it still cranks, which would mean the wire from the starter relay is connected right?

Either way, I will be removing the intake manifold on Sunday to properly inspect the starter and see what's going on

[Greydog]

Morning

I believe the lower one is the signal wire 

Just a thought if you jury rig a supply to the fuel pump will it run ? 

Dave

[TinoTheGreek]

 

On 9/6/2023 at 10:07 AM, Greydog said:

Hi Tino

Dont know if you are aware but take a look at  www.pelicanparts.com look at their "how too" section they have some great stuff with pictures and descriptions

The black wire is it solid Black or Black with a Green trace?

Dave

Hello there Dave, I have confimed that the wire that isn't connected to the starter has a green trace on it.

[TinoTheGreek]

13 hours ago, Greydog said:

Morning

I believe the lower one is the signal wire 

Just a thought if you jury rig a supply to the fuel pump will it run ? 

Dave

I have not tried that yet, I should because that's also important. But I do know that there is no power going to the pump, I've tested the wires. Not just basing this off a no start. Honestly that'd be pretty dumb of me if that were the case...

[Greydog]

Quote

 

From the wiring diagram in TIS the signal wire Black Green trace goes to the immobiliser.

You are right about the fuel pump feed just me thinking out loud again I guess finding out if the relay is powered and working or not is the next step

Dave

 

[TinoTheGreek]

On 9/9/2023 at 2:14 AM, Greydog said:

From the wiring diagram in TIS the signal wire Black Green trace goes to the immobiliser.

You are right about the fuel pump feed just me thinking out loud again I guess finding out if the relay is powered and working or not is the next step

Dave

 

Good morning Dave, Sunday before last was a rest day for me so apologies for the late response.

I got around to inspecting the starter yesterday, removed the intake manifold to get a good view of what was going on. I look around the starter for a post for that black/green wire and did not find it. Looked online and I found out that the starter on my vehicle is an older style which only has 2 posts on it. It's supposed to have the newer style starter with 3 posts on it. I suspect the starter has been replaced before and with the wrong one. But, the people online say that it can still work, it just needs to be connected to the post with the other black wire. They say "This replicates the circuit on the early cars. The only real difference is that the unloader relays now ground through the pull-in and hold-in coils before grounding through the motor." Which I don't think would cause a problem with providing current to the fuel pump?

Also, I think I located the fuel pump relay by following the White/Blue power wire form the fuel pump itself. More on that on a new post below.

[TinoTheGreek]

UPDATE:

Heyo! Sunday before last was a rest day for me, got back to it yesterday.

So, I removed the intake manifold to get a good view of the starter, and it turned out to be an older style 2 post instead of a newer style 3 post which is what is supposed to be in my vehicle, so I suspect the starter was changed before, and because it was the wrong one they just left the Black/Green wire dangling. Sources online state that I can just connect the Black/Green wire to the same post as the Black wire and they say "This replicates the circuit on the early cars. The only real difference is that the unloader relays now ground through the pull-in and hold-in coils before grounding through the motor. " Which shouldn't cause a problem I think?

That did not change anything tho, still no power to wiring going to the fuel pump. 

Next, the Fuel pump was removed to be tested, fuel pump was seized so I replaced it but I knew that wouldn't fix the problem.

After that, I started tracing wires to locate the fuel pump relay as I wasn't convinced it was the relay in the trunk. I followed the White/Blue Wire (Power Wire) from the fuel pump, which led me toward the front of the car, and into the glove box. I followed the wire all the way to this relay I have circled, so I believe this to be the Fuel Pump Relay? The White/Blue Wire is connected to Pin 87 On The Relay.

And, according to the fuse label in my glove box I have 2 Fuel pump fuses? (Fuse 22 Which Is A 25A & Fuse 31 Which Is A 10A) I assume one is a constant 12v for the Fuel pump relay, being Fuse 22, and the other, being Fuse 31,  is a signal wire to send power to the Fuel pump? I tested both while keying on the vehicle and cranking it. Fuse 22 had a constant 9/10v going to it whether vehicle is on or off (I assume it's supposed to be around 12v but the battery had been in use for quite some time throughout the day so battery was low on power), and Fuse 31 get's nothing, even when I key the vehicle on to the run position and try to crank.

I didn't have time to confirm if the wires from the 2 fuses connect to the relay so Sunday coming I will trace those wires from the relay to see where they go. In Addition to this, through the week leading up to Sunday I will look up wiring diagrams so I have an idea what is connected to what.

 

I'll be back with an update next week.

Any input is appreciated!

[Greydog]

Wow Tino your car is one for the archives

So now you are looking for the supply to fuse 31 I will go back into TIS and see what I can find

Almost there Buddy

Dave

[TinoTheGreek]

8 hours ago, Greydog said:

Wow Tino your car is one for the archives

So now you are looking for the supply to fuse 31 I will go back into TIS and see what I can find

Almost there Buddy

Dave

Many thanks Dave, I have received some information on this from a different source but won't be able to confirm if it is correct until I check myself on Sunday. They said that "Fuse 22 is the power to operate the pump switched thru the relay closure" meaning constant power to the relay. And that "Fuse 31 is switched power to the coil relay from the DME to energize it, enabling the relay to supply B+ thru it to the fuel pump" which would be the signal power to allow the relay to send power to the fuel pump.

That means I was correct with my thoughts on the function of the Fuses for the fuel pump. That being said...

What I am understanding, unless I misunderstood that information, is that the DME sends a signal to Fuse 31, which in turn sends signal to the Fuel Pump Relay to allow the constant power to run to the Fuel Pump. Is that about right?

Also, another person informed me that if the crank position sensor was bad I would not have been able to start the car on starting fluid... I looked online and sure enough I found information saying "The DME uses the Crankshaft Sensor signal to time the pulsing of the injectors and timing of the ignition. Without that signal you have NEITHER spark from the coils/plugs NOR injector pulse."

Sooo I'm at a loss for words. I'm still changing the crank position sensor just incase.

That aside, I'm thinking maybe DME Related Issues.

 

Alright, plans for Sunday so far:

-Trace The 3 Wires Back From Fuel Pump Relay To See Where They Go, Look Out For Any Broken Wires/Corrosion Along The Way

-Check Wiring From Crank Position Sensor To DME For Any Broken Wires/Corrosion

-Check All Connections By DME

-Check DME Connectors For Corrosion 

-Check DME Pins For Corrosion

-Remove DME Case (If Possible) And Check For Corrosion

-Check DME Grounds

-Check DME Relay Socket

I also need to fix my OBD port to see if I can communicate with the DME in the first place. OBD port is not receiving power so I need to diagnose that as well. I have an idea as to what may be causing that as well but have not checked to confirm yet.

I also want to jump the fuel pump relay to make sure power will go to the fuel pump like that.

 

Any other ideas on what I need to check? Maybe I missed something?

[Greydog]

Certainly testing your resilience Tino

I have seen 2, X5 E53 with corroded pins on the DME that gave no start no crank. In both cases the issue was caused by a faulty thermostat coolant was making its way up the loom by capillary action and caused damage to the DME. One I changed the DME, EWS, Keys Door lock and ignition lock, got the lot as a kit from Quarry Motors the other I could clean and get repaired by ECU Testing in Nottingham 

Dave

[TinoTheGreek]

8 hours ago, Greydog said:

Certainly testing your resilience Tino

I have seen 2, X5 E53 with corroded pins on the DME that gave no start no crank. In both cases the issue was caused by a faulty thermostat coolant was making its way up the loom by capillary action and caused damage to the DME. One I changed the DME, EWS, Keys Door lock and ignition lock, got the lot as a kit from Quarry Motors the other I could clean and get repaired by ECU Testing in Nottingham 

Dave

I see, that's very very interesting Dave.

Well, I'll be getting a clearer answer this Sunday so i'll be back with an update next Monday!

[TinoTheGreek]

Heyo!

Back with an update. I figured out how the system is wired up from the DME all the way to the fuel pump.

Before That I Checked All The Grounds In The Engine Bay, And Did Not Notice Any Bad Connections.

I Also Inspected All Connectors For The DME, As Well As All Pins On The DME & Even Opened The DME To Inspect The Board. No Corrosion To Be Found Anywhere, And No Bent Pins.

 

I Located A Pin Out For My DME And Traced The Wires From Fuse 31 Into The Engine Bay. This is The Conclusion I Came To:

-The DME (Section X60002) Has A Brown/White Wire (Main/DME Relay Activation Signal) That Comes From Pin 23 And Connects To Pin 85 On The Main/DME Relay.

-The Main/DME Relay Has 4 Pins. Pins 30, 85, 87 (1) & 87 (2).

——Pin 30 Has A Red Wire (Constant Power) Going To It.

——Pin 85, As Stated Earlier, Has A Brown/White Wire (Main/DME Relay Activation Signal) Going To It And Provides The Signal To Tell The Relay To Activate.

——Pin 87 (1) (Center Pin) Has A Red/White Wire That Splits Into A Y. The Wire Of Importance (Red/White) Goes To The White 12 Pin Connector With A Harness That Goes Into The Lower Area Of The Firewall Towards The Glove Box, Which In Turn Connects To The “Power In” Side Of Fuse 31 In The Glove Box.

-The “Power Out” Side Of Fuse 31 Goes To Pin 86 On The Fuel Pump Relay Which Carries The Fuel Pump Relay Activation Signal. This Allows Power From Pin 30 (Constant Power) To Send Power Through The Relay To Pin 87 Which Then Carries The Power To The Fuel Pump.

 

I Tested For Continuity Between Pin 86 On The Fuel Pump Relay And The “Power Out” Side Of Fuse 31 And That’s Good, Also Tested Between The “Power In” Side Of Fuse 31 And The Red/White Wire From The White 12 Pin Connector And That’s Good As Well. Unfortunately, Shortly After Finding Out This Wonderful Information, I Got Rained Out And Didn’t Get To Proceed. 😔

 

It’s Unfortunate, But I’ll Just Move The Work To Sunday Coming. I Have To:

-Test For Continuity Between The White 12 Pin Connector And Pin 87 On The Main/DME Relay.

-Test For Continuity Between Pin 85 On The Main/DME Relay And Pin 23 On Section X60002 Of The DME.

-Test For Constant Power At Pin 30 On The Main/DME Relay.

-Test For A Signal From The DME At Pin 87 On The Main/DME Relay While Keying On/Off The Vehicle.

-Test All Grounds Coming Out Of The DME (I Believe 4 Grounds Are DME Related And 20 Other Grounds Are For Miscellaneous Items, But All Will Be Checked).

-Follow Ground Wire (Black/Purple) From Pin 85 On The Fuel Pump Relay To See Where It Goes Because I Probed It With A Ground Point In The Vehicle And Did Not Get Any Continuity.

-Replace Crankshaft Position Sensor (Nothing Wrong With The Old One, Already Ordered A New One So Might As Well Replace It Now That I Have Easy Access).

-Replace Fuel Pump.

 

Like always, any assistance is appreciated, let me know your thoughts!

Here's a shot of some spaghetti 😋

[Greydog]

Hells teeth Tino your going to know more about your BMW than the Dealer ever would 

BMW have a love of Multiple earth points my 4.4 X5 had some issues which I traced finally to the Earth point at the spare wheel well. I remade all earth points using contact paste to make sure all were good.

Good luck buddy you must be close now

Dave

[TinoTheGreek]

1 hour ago, Greydog said:

Hells teeth Tino your going to know more about your BMW than the Dealer ever would 

BMW have a love of Multiple earth points my 4.4 X5 had some issues which I traced finally to the Earth point at the spare wheel well. I remade all earth points using contact paste to make sure all were good.

Good luck buddy you must be close now

Dave

What can I say Dave, all I have is determination!

I'm actually enjoying this lol, I like the challenge and I'm learning along the way expanding my skillset, I just don't have enough free time. 😭

A week worth of work would take me 7 weeks because I only have Sundays off and that's IF I don't take a Sunday off for whatever reason. I feel as though I would've had this 530i running by now if I had more time but it'll get done eventually.

 

That aside, my question is, do all grounds intertwine with each other? To be more specific, for continuity purposes, a ground should give me a continuity reading once another ground/or the chassis which the grounds connect to is probed right?

I'm asking because when I probed the Black/Purple Wire On The Fuel Pump Relay, which I assumed was a ground, to the chassis or a ground junction, I didn't get a reading for continuity. Either that isn't a ground or there is a break in the wire somewhere, which could potentially be the problem. May not be tho because the signal from the DME isn't making it's way to the relay regardless. 

 

I feel like I'll haver her running in two weeks so let's see. 🤞

[Greydog]

Morning Tino

BMW Chassis ground points are normally Brown however BMW are masters at earth controlled switching which is what I believe your seeing

At the Fuel pump relay, key in ignition on. You should have power at Pin 30 (Red/Purple) and also at Pin 86 (Red/White) The DME should supply the Ground on Pin 85 (Black/Purple) The Fuel Pump itself is Pin 87 (White/Blue)

Hope this helps

Dave

 

[TinoTheGreek]

7 hours ago, Greydog said:

Morning Tino

BMW Chassis ground points are normally Brown however BMW are masters at earth controlled switching which is what I believe your seeing

At the Fuel pump relay, key in ignition on. You should have power at Pin 30 (Red/Purple) and also at Pin 86 (Red/White) The DME should supply the Ground on Pin 85 (Black/Purple) The Fuel Pump itself is Pin 87 (White/Blue)

Hope this helps

Dave

 

Morning Dave, many thanks. 🙏

I assumed as much yes, but if pin 85 is indeed a ground, even if it's directly supplied by the DME wouldn't I get a continuity reading once I probed another ground with pin 85? Either way, I'll be tracing back that Black/Purple wire on Sunday to see where it leads specifically and to make sure there are no breaks in the wire.

[Greydog]

🤞

[TinoTheGreek]

Wow it's been a long time....

I was having issues with the daily that needed immediate attention on multiple occasions and had other vehicles to attend to as well so unfortunately I had to put the e39 on the back burner 😔

I'm back tho, got work done on the e39 yesterday. Getting really close to getting her running again!

I got back to figuring out the electrical, and turns out there was a cut ground wire inside the vehicle under the dash which was going into the engine bay. Also, installed a new fuel pump because the old one was cooked. Great news tho, fuel pump is now receiving power and is functioning normally.

I also replaced all the vacuum lines in the engine bay as they were deteriorated and missing. While I was there I replaced the Crank Position Sensor For Good Measure.

 

Now we have a new issue... Before, the vehicle used to run on starting fluid, but now that the fuel pump is working, the engine doesn't wanna run. Not on it's own fuel or even starting fluid. It gets very close to starting, and even starts sputtering like it's about to start.

 

I checked for compression, compression is good on all cylinders.

I checked for spark, all the coils are good.

I checked for fuel pressure, rail has pressure.

I tested all the injectors, the spray is a lil weak, and one of the injectors appears either clogged or dead. I'm planning on pulling them all out and cleaning them. If the injector that looks dead is actually dead then i'll replace it.

it has air, as well.

 

I get a backfire coming out of the intake with a little smoke after trying to crank it for some time, like there's back pressure or something, and the throttle body is acting weird when trying to open and close it with the gas pedal. These things weren't  happening before.

 

The only conclusion that I can come to is that when I had the intake manifold removed, I must've either forgot to plug in a connector, or swapped a couple of connectors by accident (which apparently from what I read online, is very possible). And I'm also starting to suspect that black wire that I connected to the starter ground earlier in this thread as the last time I ran the engine on starting fluid was before I connected that wire.

 

I'll remove the intake again, and go over all my work as well Sunday coming.

 

Any thoughts?